laura ([info]shinyobject) wrote,
@ 2007-12-24 19:19:00
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poverty and healthcare rant
I definitely don't believe in "From each according to his ability; from each according to his needs." That idea would lead to everyone competing to be seen as the neediest and most unproductive. If you know that every completed task will just result in another one assigned, while a neglected task will result in free time, where's the incentive to work? Welfare works in the same way-- in the absence of a desire to earn what you are given, you get quotes like:

"What, [16-yearold son]? You got a job?!? Don't you go fucking up my welfare!!" (true quote)

These people ruin things for those who are actually in need of assistance through no fault of their own. Hard workers get laid off, scapegoats are needed, bosses' sons get the job, etc. Bankruptcy ruins your credit for a decade. Things are actually a lot more expensive for the poorest people. Example:

Joe earns $60 a day as a waiter. He has no friends or family, and no car. Where does he live?
A. a $300/month apartment
B. a $30/night motel (= $900/month)

Answer: B
Because Joe doesn't have $300. He certainly doesn't have first and last month's rent and a security deposit, or any credit. He does have $30/day.

Joe could spend $50/month on rice and beans, cooking them himself. But he doesn't, he spends $5/day eating at the restaurant he works at, ($150/month) because his motel room doesn't have a kitchen.

If Joe had a car, and it was a piece of shit and broke, and the repairs cost $300 to keep it running for another month, he would pay that because getting a "new" car costs $1000. Or he would just not be able to fix it, and lose his job for lack of a way to work.

And so on, with every aspect of Joe's life. He's lucky though, at least he has a job, and no kids or other dependents. Ever try to get a job when you smell like you live on the streets? And he doesn't drink or smoke or do drugs, though the miserable lifestyle of poverty results in these expensive habits for many if not most poor people. As it is he could theoretically save $10/day for a month and be able to afford a shitty apartment.

What happens when they find out that Joe has a heart condition because the cheeseburger costs $5 and the salad costs $7 where he works, so that's what he eats?

Or a simpler problem, what happens when he breaks his leg falling down stairs?
First of all, he can no longer work.
He doesn't have the option to just live with his affliction, as many poor people do. A broken leg will indeed kill you if not treated, or at least leave you crippled for life. He goes into debt, ensuring that he will probably be poor for the next several years. And you wonder why homeless people play the lottery.

Children do poorly in school for lack of school supplies, or because they're expected to babysit their younger siblings while their mom works her second job in the evenings. They don't go on field trips because they cost $10. They don't have friends because they can't go to movies, or buy food at the mall, or because they wear used clothes.

The beauty of our system is that libraries are free, and schools are free (except for supplies, time, etc.). Doing well in school allows many to go to college for free. Doing well there allows many to get good jobs.

See, the thing is, I was lucky. And it's stupid things that resulted in me being here, at a computer, with a firm grasp on the English language, studying at a great school. Even if I am forty grand in debt. Like, the fact that I chose to read all the time since I had no friends, instead of getting into trouble. The fact that my mom worked at a library, though she did spend several years working shitty jobs even with her degree. Like, answering calls at the Water Board. Imagine being cursed at hundreds of times a day by people whose water was shut off because they didn't pay the bill. I won't even go into the frustration my dad is still going through.

But still-- I didn't take two or three AP tests I could have aced, because they each cost $82. And the only reason I'm at UofC is because ASMS was free. Oh, and owning a computer before my sophomore year of college would've been nice. Visiting colleges before choosing one would have been nice. And though working and not having certain things has, I think, given me valuable perspective, it's still the case that my friends who don't have to work during college tend to do better than those who do. An extra 15 hours a week goes a long way, not to mention the stress that comes with worrying about money all the time.

I remember this one girl, Allison, telling me "My parents are paying for you to go to college." I wanted to punch her. "Why should my parents be punished for working hard and saving money?" Because why would you get a discount on something you can afford to pay for? Why should the limited amount of financial aid not go to those who need it? Fucking bitch.

She was also the one who thinks people who rent are "stupid" because, obviously, her parents bought her a condo so she won't have to "throw away" money in rent, so everybody should be able to do that. She's one of the ones I'm writing to, though she'll never read this. She's someone who thinks that if you work hard and are intelligent, money automatically falls into your lap, and that if you're poor you don't deserve an education. Or Jana from asms who thinks her $100,000/year family is "lower middle class." I don't think rich people are bad, just that many of them have this Social Darwinism thing going on. When people adopt whatever philosophy serves to justify their luxuries, when people convince themselves that they *need* and deserve all these luxuries, and yet somehow people who work longer and harder hours need and deserve extremely little, that's what gets to me.

I understand why CEOs and movie stars make millions while much more difficult and valuable jobs like teaching at public schools pay little. The fact is that maybe a dozen people can do what Brad Pitt or Bill Gates do as well as they can, and these talents make millions and billions of dollars for their companies. But they certainly don't work *harder* than teachers or fast-food, factory, or construction workers, and it takes the same amount of food and water and shelter to keep them alive.

-sigh-

We need a system that gives a limited amount of aid to those who need it, and education and healthcare for everyone as much as they need. Those who can afford luxuries should pay this cost. Personally though, I'd just drastically raise the taxes of vacations, luxury cars and boats and houses, fine dining, etc. to raise this money rather than taxing income directly. I don't think jobs that pay less than $10/hour should be taxed at all, since anyone working them would get it refunded at the end of the year anyway. I think Congress shouldn't have the power to vote themselves raises every year while keeping the minimum wage steady for a decade.

Most of all though, I think that instead of the current healthcare system, wherein doctors are either encouraged to cover their asses by ordering bunches of expensive and unnecessary tests, or obliged to spend as little time and money per patient as possible without overtly breaking the Hippocratic Oath. We need a system that's based on results-- that is, healthy patients at the end of the day, both by the patient's satisfaction and by objectively verifiable measures. Hospitals are rated this way, so why aren't insurance companies?

Monetary rewards for losing weight, or staying at your ideal weight, would help.
Subsidies for growing, transporting, and selling healthy foods. Stop advertising candy and sugary cereals to kids, just like we nixed cigarette ads.
And tax breaks for people who volunteer their time to help others. I'd love it if the rich had more contact with the poor, rather than just writing checks, though that's important too.

And for the love of God, fund medical research. As it is, big pharma *has* to charge ungodly prices for their drugs, otherwise how would they pay for years of trial and error and the time of qualified employees? They know they'll go generic within a few years, and you can't expect them to operate at a loss. Healthy citizens are invaluable to the economy. Connecting monetary incentives and the ideal of healthy people will profit everyone in the end, it's just how to start the ball rolling that I don't kow how to do. Politicians can't get elected by promising socialized healthcare at the cost of raising taxes, because the rich are the ones that donate to their campaigns and compose Congress. Hmm.


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[info]dudeitsawesome
2007-12-25 04:06 am UTC (link)
If you haven't ever read Nickel and Dimed , you really should.

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[info]shinyobject
2007-12-25 04:08 am UTC (link)
Oh, I did. Wonderful, wonderful book, should be required reading for every high school student (especially at private schools)

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[info]protomech
2007-12-25 05:42 am UTC (link)
She was also the one who thinks people who rent are "stupid" because, obviously, her parents bought her a condo so she won't have to "throw away" money in rent, so everybody should be able to do that.

I've been doing a lot of reading and thinking about the numbers involved. The "renting equals throwing away money" sentiment is definitely not generally true, at least in the sense that all other options also throw away huge stacks of dollars.
http://www.getrichslowly.org/blog/2007/07/16/renting-vs-buying-the-realities-of-home-buying/

There are plenty of benefits (and responsibilities) associated with home "ownership" outside of the scope of a purely financial analysis. But it definitely deserves a little more thought than a simple dismissal.

Or Jana from asms who thinks her $100,000/year family is "lower middle class."

Depending on where they are living in alabama, a family income of $100k could either be upper or lower middle class. If they live as if they were "lower middle class", then they're probably living below their means slightly - as opposed to the very american habit of living above our means.

I generally agree with your other sentiments, although it's not something I've examined in much detail. Our healthcare "system" is pretty ineffective - a quarter of the federal budget goes to medicare and medicaid, nearly $700 billion. Somehow I'm not convinced that we're seeing the benefit of what we pay for.

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[info]columbian
2007-12-26 04:41 am UTC (link)
There are thousand causes din the world to fight for. Can you be angry at someone for choosing one cause above another? Should we give equal attention to each cause? And what about luxary. Lets step back and look at the general state of a human life in average? How much education is really due to anyone? how much food? how much water?

I think your looking at the big issues which is good but now zoom in. How exactly are each of these things to be done. How to help each thing? It takes alot of work and alot of time of alot of people to ensure a proper balanace. Look deeply at policy making and look at how the simplest statement entaiuls the most complex of a background.

Again there are so many things your advocating laura. people get overwhelmed. Most people find it hard enough to deal with a job, bills, family. How easy is it to take any idea and turn it into reality? how much time and effort? people need more detailed instructions then we should raise taxes here or eat more natural food. how much do you stick to everything you advocate? how much does anyone stick to what they advocate? Alot of questions the most of which i am still trying to answer.

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[info]shinyobject
2007-12-26 05:21 am UTC (link)
I'm just trying to figure out what should be done, the next step is figuring out how to do it. No one can help every cause, but everyone can do one or two things.

Food and water are easy to figure out what's due to everyone, that's just physiology. Education is slipperier, since you can technically live without it. It's a way for people to get out of the cycle of poverty, but you have to want it.

And it's not easy to add on one more thing to the daily grind, but I want people to realize how many things they have are luxuries and status symbols, and maybe give up one or two of them so someone else can live.

I stick by what I advocate, not perfectly. I have luxuries, like music and books and wine and a cellphone, that I don't need, but I do donate to worthwhile causes. I've broken free of that mindset that consuming more makes you a better person, I don't envy rich people anymore, am not ashamed of buying secondhand clothes.

But you're right, providing regular people with specific instructions and incentives to accomplish all this is the hard part. I can stand on a soapbox all I want, and maybe I'll convince one or two people to give $20 or a few hours of their time, or at least despise poor people less. That's not a lot, but it's something.

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[info]columbian
2007-12-26 08:04 pm UTC (link)
One thing still nags on my mind. Why do i or anyone else have to give anyone else food or water? why does a farmer have to work for others? Or why do the people of one region who have a water supply and are not over using it have to give their water (live closer to death) to a people of another region who have overpopulated and do not have a proper water supply? What about the people who saved and lived frugally and want to provide for their own children and grand children. Why should they have to provide for anothers children and grandchildren?

And the argument that the gov pays farmers to let crops rot isn't worth it because sure those crops could be used to feed the hungry but whos footing the bill to transport those goods and providing the staffing dollars to distribute those goods?

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[info]shinyobject
2007-12-27 08:20 pm UTC (link)
and we're back to the fundamental difference between our ideologies.
You think people who have money and resources are entitled to them because they earned them, and that those without these deserve to die. I've seen way too many instances where this is not the case, where the people working their asses off get nothing and those who do get rewarded did nothing to earn it. That's the flaw in libertarianism. It would work perfectly if everyone got what they deserved, but that's not reality.

The whole point of this post was to show why I believe it is all but impossible to break out of poverty for many people, and this in the richest country in the world. It's a million times worse in places that don't have the infrastructure we have.

The point is to give them the opportunity to help themselves. I mean, just letting them starve? That's WHAT"S HAPPENING ALREADY and guess what? They're not dying out, they're just suffering horribly their entire short lives.

If you don't like the idea of just giving people things, try looking up programs like SKS MicroFinance. They give loans usually less than $100, have a 95%+ repayment rate, and help people get themselves out of poverty who wouldn't be able to otherwise.

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[info]columbian
2007-12-27 09:39 pm UTC (link)
oh yes mohamud Yunis came up with a great idea and he has been justly rewarded for his efforts. You are correct microlending is an incredible new financing method and does have a high rate of success. KIt also empowers women because many of these programs cater only to females putting the financial decisions on the female sex rather then the male one which is great for equal rights. There again though those are willing loans that actually turn a profit for the instituion giving the loans out.

Also you still never answered my question about some people working and others not. You just said we're different and left it at that. This is a very important question and one you will have to learn to answer if you want to convert anyone from their hard conservative ways. Preaching to the choir doesn't get votes.

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[info]shinyobject
2007-12-27 09:50 pm UTC (link)
If you work and earn money, your'e entitled to do whatever you want with it. Poorer people are not entitled to aid because they're poor.

But when you have extra money, in my opinion the right thing to do with it is to help even out the system-- not by making everyone equally wealthy, but by giving everyone an equal opportunity to succeed.

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[info]columbian
2007-12-28 12:22 am UTC (link)
How do you define extra though? One mans extra might be another mans retiremant money or money he's saving so his kjids won't have to work so hard.

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[info]shinyobject
2007-12-28 12:49 am UTC (link)
You can use that argument to justify any amount of luxury-- I'm sure Britney Spears thinks spending more than ten times my dad's entire income just on eating in restaurants every month is essential.

Everybody defines it differently, but some things are dead sure luxuries which are what I think should be taxed heavily, like i said in the original post.

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[info]columbian
2007-12-28 01:00 am UTC (link)
your right but i promise taxing those kind of luxaries won't net you enough money to open a nic ehospital for the needy the real tax dollars come from the middle class and corporations/very very rich people. And the money you get from those rich people isn't because of yaghts but more from simple income tax. So if you want to make any money taxing people you are going to have to venture into that gray area of middle middle class america and determine what can be taxed there.

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[info]shinyobject
2008-03-24 06:11 pm UTC (link)
this one book, "Ishmael' by Daniel Quinn
I read it in a day, it was one of those.
I miss you, David. Sorry for not existing, you know how it is.

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